Team Fortress Wiki:Archived discussions/Template talk:Scout

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.

Quicklink Templates

I created this template to have an easy way to replace links to classes while translating by just replacing the square brackets of a class by curly brackets. ([[Scout]] -> {{Scout}})

In addition, this makes it easier when reusing code from another translated page.

While we have the {{class link|Scout|noimg=true}} template, I think it's neither common nor practical.

I would appreciate feedback before I add the other 8 class quicklink templates, escpecially what speaks against this. SackZement <Talk> 07:43, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

Forgot some languages use other names for each class which adds slighty more effort when translating a classlink. Printed name is now taken from the dictionary. SackZement <Talk> 10:48, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

To be honest, the dictionary pretty much handles the exact functions shown on here. Also, there are other templates that pull from the dictionary for auto translations on class names. So honestly, this template is kind of redundant IMO. Ashes (talk) 10:54, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

Which template is there to easily create class links? Clearly it's not class link as mentioned above. SackZement <Talk> 10:57, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

I was about to mention "Class link" as if you check the documentation (And I use this method more often), {{class link|Scout|noimg=true}}. Sure its a bit complicated with the noimg part but it functions exactly the same way. Also, there's other ways of pulling directly from the dictionary, (Although I can't remember the other method, I'm quite sure it exists). Ashes (talk) 11:01, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

While it is true it gives the exact same result, class link is annoying to use while translating. If the way of pulling from the dictionary is messy atm i can just use {{Scout}} as an alias for {{class link|Scout|noimg=true}}. That way, the implementation/pulling from the dictionary is done properly and non-redundant, and people can just write {{Scout}} to have the desired result. SackZement <Talk> 11:12, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

Although true, another method to this could be implemented into the dictionary to make it easier, however a discussion would have to be started in that case. Even though the template may be useful, it bears a similarity with the current method of pulling from the dictionary. My opinion still stands at the moment. Ashes (talk) 11:21, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

 Support I upvote the idea of SackZement because it would make it shorter & is more efficient and logical to understand. Where is the upvote button? Magicalpony (talk) 11:48, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

We have  Support ({{c|Support}}) and  Disagree ({{c|disagree}}) for better visibility FYI SackZement <Talk> 11:51, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Neutral I don't think it'd hurt to implement this at all and it'd be useful for a number of cases, but as far as I can see, I wouldn't use it at all since I didn't miss it before. By the way, {{Scout}} and {{Class link|Scout|noimg=true}} are not comparable since it would be easier to just use the classic [[Scout/de|Scout]] instead of this unnecessary template. Though this wrapper actually is shorter, it should be compared to more realistic situations. Or have you ever seen {{Class link|Scout|noimg=true}} in a continous text? ;) { TidB | t | c | wt } 12:14, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

 Comment If this really does makes things easier for translators then cool. But I always thought they'd just copy and paste [[class/lang|class]] throughout the article instead. —Moussekateer·talk 12:20, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

I actually miss this while editing, but wanted to know if there are other people out there who agree. So I created the template so people can see what I mean and how it looks like in action. When there is no interest in this template I admit it is not necessary, but I would use it. How it is implemented is another story. SackZement <Talk> 12:24, 24 July 2014 (PDT)

I think everyone who wanted to say something had the opportunity by now. Looks like Magicalpony and me think it would help editing, TidB thinks it might be useful in some cases. I will wait a little longer and then create the templates as an alias/wrapper for {{class link|Class|noimg=true}} except someone has a rational reason against it. The only "problems" I see are that every additional template might be confusing for new editors (however, this one is rather simple and the functionality could even be figured out without a documentation) and that it might be redundant (obviously, since it is only an alias. however we frequently use Template:Item link, which is just an alias for [[{{item name}}/language|{{item name}}]]) SackZement <Talk> 03:19, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

As far as I'm aware, it's suggested to use the item link template so that names of items on pages are (more or less) updated automatically, rather than having to go through the page and edit every instance of the name to make sure it's correct (correct me if I'm wrong on this, I'm not a translator so I'm not entirely sure on the specifics). Additionally, I think that the template wouldn't be that useful. It's such a minor thing that having a template for it isn't necessary, and it'd only be used by experienced translators, considering that a lot of new translators don't use these sorts of templates at all, as far as I'm aware. If you really need a way to make it faster to get the class links, just create a document on your computer for it, that's what I've done for all of the image category stuff that I do. Or, if you really needed it in template form, you could just use the item link template (which would just look like this: {{item link|Scout}}). Though, one thing to keep in mind of course, is that the more templates that are used (along with large templates), the slower the pages will load, which is an obvious problem to be avoided. --Omolong (talk) 08:26, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

“

it's suggested to use the item link template so that names of items on pages are (more or less) updated automatically — Omolong

”

I think you misunderstood something: Indeed, we use the item link template to have auto-updates on names. But when I wrote [[{{item name}}/language|{{item name}}]] I wrote about the item name template, which gets the name from the dictionary, not a hard-coded item name. Item link does not acces the dictionary itself, but it is implemented as I wrote above and uses the item name template.

“

It's such a minor thing that having a template for it isn't necessary — Omolong

”

We have other even smaller templates, like Template:b whichs only purpose is to add a point.

“

and it'd only be used by experienced translators, considering that a lot of new translators don't use these sorts of templates at all — Omolong

”

I don't see a problem in having a template that is only used by experienced translators, a lot of templates are, actually.

“

you could just use the item link template (which would just look like this: {{item link|Scout}}) — Omolong

”

Using {{item link|Scout}} would be an abuse of the item link template imo, since scout obviously does not refer to an item.

“

the more templates that are used (along with large templates), the slower the pages will load — Omolong

”

The loading time is actually a valid concern, although I don't think such a small template would have a large impact. I'd like to have some feedback on template loading times from one of the administrators, however. SackZement <Talk> 10:02, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

Regarding the template load, if you were going to use this as a template don't make it call another template. Just use [[Scout{{if lang}}|Scout]] directly. —Moussekateer·talk 10:07, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

Okay thanks. Just wondering, do we have 2 entries for each page, 1 page with the actual wiki code that gets shown when I press edit, and 1 page that gets compiled and all templates are dissolved etc. for people who just want to view the page? SackZement <Talk> 10:17, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

I was referring to you mentioning the item link template, rather than misunderstanding. Either way, the general point is the same, the names automatically update from the dictionary. The class names are rarely, if ever, changed, so accessing the dictionary for auto-updates is completely irrelevant when it comes to that. I've never seen that B template used, but it appears to be for a non-standard character (or at least, a character that people wouldn't know how to access), so that's a lot more understandable than a template that is just a shortcut for an already used method. Can you point to some other templates that experienced translators use, as well? I understand the item link/name ones and the class link ones, but I can't think of any other translation specific ones. I've seen the item name template used for things that aren't items, such as for the Style section header on items that have styles, so I don't really think that really counts for much. I honestly feel like this template would have barely any benefit, other than saving a couple of seconds when translating. It'd increase page load (however minor it is, the load still piles up with the templates), and would likely confuse newer editors. I don't think the minor benefit would really outweigh the costs. --Omolong (talk) 10:28, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

{{undocumented}} essentially just writes [undocumented] in the correct language, I guess you see that more often than {{B}}. {{common string}} for section headlines like strategy is rarely used, most just translate strategy by themselves. Saving time while editing is one of the reasons why we use templates, be it some seconds or a minute. I interpreted Moussekateers comment as if the additional loading time would not be noticeable. And to be honest, this template would not be nearly as confusing as templates with parameters. You read {{undocumented}} while editing and see there is undocumented written on the page; you read {{Scout}} while editing and see there is a link to the Scout written on the page.

I understand and accept you don't want to use it, but why don't we give other people the chance to use it if it helps them when the downsides are that tiny. To bad we don't have much feedback from translator here. SackZement <Talk> 11:03, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

I'll give you the undocumented one, that one is used in place of the actual text. The common string template is mostly used for other templates, I think? Like for column headers, though I might be wrong on this. A large part of the confusion would come from the inconsistency in what's used, though. As far as I'm aware, all undocumented patch changes are marked with that template. With this template, there would be a lot of different ways of showing a class link. There's the class link template, there's the ordinary link that (as far as I'm aware) is most commonly used, there'd be this method, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few others too. It's a confusing inconsistency (which is found in other places on the wiki too, but obviously it would be best if it wasn't), which should be minimized as much as possible. If I were a new editor and saw different pages using different style of links, I would be pretty confused at which style of link is better and which should be used.

In regards to the final comment, I'd honestly try and get more feedback from different people on it, before going ahead with more templates or getting it to be widely used. There's only been about 5 people offering their input, and only two of those are translators. Though, I did just have one thought. If you were able to turn this into a substitution template (and maybe change the name to something like Scout link, to avoid accidental usage), it would probably avoid a lot of the issues that have been brought up, while still making it faster to use while translating. --Omolong (talk) 11:29, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

There would be more ways to show class links, and I think that the "normal" way with square brackets is the most common aswell. However, I think that is because it is actually the easiest way atm, which would no longer be the case with the new templates. Renaming the template greatly reduces the usability of this template, since my idea was to just replace the square brackets of [[Scout]] with curly brackets, nothing more. I will not release this template and even add 8 more just for myself and 1 or 2 other people, but it is a pity that an idea that might be helpful for several people founders on missing feedback. I might go around and ask some people what they think and link them to this page. Until then, thanks for giving me plenty improvement suggestions, even when I disagreed with most of them, Omolong. SackZement <Talk> 11:49, 26 July 2014 (PDT)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.