Difference between revisions of "User:RotatcepS/plans"

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m (ctx is even decoded in wiki patch pages)
m (possible new spread reps)
 
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The point is, you can't shoot somebody from inside of them - collision boxes keep you more than 0 HU apart.
 
The point is, you can't shoot somebody from inside of them - collision boxes keep you more than 0 HU apart.
  
−
Spread
 
−
* shotgun ctx File says 0.0675, not 0.0625 like discussion page said (shotguns, scatterguns except backscatter x1.20 & shortstop 0.04)
 
−
* Ratio (e.g. 30:1) is documented in e.g. shotgun as: 30 "Hammer Units away from target" : 1 "Hammer Units of spread on target"
 
−
*  I do not know the origin if this measure or representation. "spread on target" I interpret as distance from center.
 
−
*  Therefore we are describing a right triangle of length 30, width 1.  This rotates around the aim center to describe a cone of diameter 2.
 
−
*  If we assume spread is a radian angle of that right triangle, we should expect tan(angle) = 1/30 or 30 = 1/(tan(angle)), but instead, 1/(tan(0.0675)) = 14.79
 
−
*  If we instead assume spread is the radian angle of the entire cone, only half the angle applies to the right triangle that describes the ratio.  1/(tan(0.0675/2)) = 29.618 which provides our rounded 30:1
 
−
* So spread accuracy ratio is "round(1/tan(angle/2)) : 1" (range for which 1 unit of spread occurs)
 
−
* ''HOWEVER: https://imgur.com/a/ZmWeqe9 is somebody making up a calculation that gets the 30:1 using a factor of 1.9, but it is based on the incorrect value 0.0625 (0.0675 would give 28:1), and is just reverse engineering from the values on the wiki, and it also refers to https://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/1gyb8g/comment/cap37c1 a well-known link based on the ctx files, but also based on code leaks.''
 
−
* pistol 50 '''(vs. 48)''' ctx says .04 (Blobbles introduced 48 "pellet spread" based ratio of 0.04 to 0.0625, not 0.0675 https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=Pistol&diff=3025144&oldid=2991362 )
 
−
* shotgun & scattergun 30 ctx says .0675
 
−
*  shortstop 50 like pistol ctx says .04
 
−
*  backscatter 25 '''(vs 24)''' ctx .0675 * items_game.txt 1.20 = 0.081
 
−
* minigun 25 '''(vs 24)''' ctx says .08 (Void1702 introduced 24 "pellet spread" based on bad math assumptions https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=Minigun&diff=3291297&oldid=3285493) etc: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Void1702 ... he reverted his own edit of huo-long for some reason?
 
−
*  tomislav 31 '''(vs 30)''' ctx .08 * items_game.txt 0.8 scale = 0.064 (Void1702 introduced 30  "pellet spread" based on bad math assumptions https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=Tomislav&diff=next&oldid=3291311)
 
−
* smg 80 '''(vs 76)''' ctx .025 (Void1702 introduced 76 "pellet spread" based on bad math assumptions https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=SMG&diff=3291314&oldid=3247298) etc: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Void1702
 
−
* revolver 80 '''(vs 76)''' ctx .025 (Void1702 introduced 76 "pellet spread" based on bad math assumptions https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/index.php?title=Revolver&diff=3291321&oldid=3247324) etc: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Void1702
 
−
* ''side note: I suspect the controversial edit from 30:1 to 15:1 was the editor considering "1" as the diameter of spread instead of the distance from center''
 
  
 
Discussion:
 
Discussion:
  
−
Spread Clarification
+
Follow-up question: I'm tempted to add a page on the wiki with a table that summarizes the 78 ctx files' information as useful source information.  But it would need updates over time (or at least a Date Stamp).  It has info that can be useful, questionable value, and semi-misleading (like a Spread value on the pomson or Range which is useful on 2 files, but others have 0, 4096, 8192).
 +
 
 +
0.0675 game value results in damage table:
 +
* Spread Cone: {{tooltip|7.735°|always hits a 25Hu diameter (body width) target from 185Hu (11.5ft) away}}
 +
* Pellet/Bullet Spread: 15 : 1
 +
* Spread Accuracy: {{tooltip|185Hu (11.5ft)|always hits a 25Hu diameter (body width) target (spread value of 0.0675 rad)}}
 +
 
 +
[[Minigun]]
 +
(copy to iron curtain. Tomislav needs different DPS & remove "s" while updating interval tip). Custom values for Natascha, Brass Beast, Huo-long reg & on fire)
 +
 
 +
14-54 / 1 ammo<br/>129-514 / s
 +
 
 +
However, I'll probably come back later with evidence of something like:  13-52 / 1 ammo & 125-500 / s
 +
 
 +
9-36 / 1 ammo<br/>86-343 / s
 +
 
 +
5-19 / 1 ammo<br/>48-190 / s
 +
 
 +
27 / bullet<br/>1029 / s max
 +
 
 +
{{tooltip|12.15|Long range}}-{{tooltip|18.225|Point blank}} / bullet<br/>{{tooltip|467|Long range}}-{{tooltip|695|Point blank}} / s max <!-- different close range likely in the future-->
 +
 
 +
bullet count = 4
 +
attack interval = 0.105 s <!-- other pages include the s -->
 +
 
 +
  damage ranges should mirror shotguns (1-4 bullets possible any range, leave tooltips for special cases, use bullet count); PerSecond=round((1/AttackInterval)*round(BulletDamage*OneOrFour)); s on attack interval on other pages
 +
'''Will have to change flamethrower DPS format to match this.'''
 +
(Manta March 2013 edit added tooltip instead of setting bullet count)
 +
 
 +
[[Natascha]]
 +
10.125/bullet
 +
 
 +
10-41 / 1 ammo<br/>95-390 / s
 +
 
 +
7-27 / 1 ammo<br/>67-257 / s
 +
 
 +
4-14 / 1 ammo<br/>38-133 / s
 +
 
 +
20.25 / bullet<br/>771 / s max
 +
 
 +
{{tooltip|9.1125|Long range}}-{{tooltip|13.6688|Point blank}} / bullet<br/>{{tooltip|343|Long range}}-{{tooltip|524|Point blank}} / s max
 +
 
 +
[[Brass Beast]]
 +
 
 +
16-65 / 1 ammo<br/>152-619 / s
 +
 
 +
11-43 / 1 ammo<br/>105-410 / s
 +
 
 +
6-23 / 1 ammo<br/>57-219 / s
 +
 
 +
32.4 / bullet<br/>1238 / s max
  
−
Each weapon is in \steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\tf\scripts\items\items_game.txt with attributes and the weapon's Item_Class. Item_Class corresponds to a ctx file in \steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\tf\tf2_misc_dir.vpk. The vpk can be extracted with GCFScape, and the 78 ctx files can be decoded with VICE (both tools via developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki).  These are also exposed in wiki patch notes (last known ctx changes visible in [[December_17,_2015_Patch#Files_changed]]).
+
{{tooltip|14.58|Long range}}-{{tooltip|21.8415|Point blank}} / bullet<br/>{{tooltip|552|Long range}}-{{tooltip|829|Point blank}} / s max
−
The ctx has Spread, and items_game.txt sometimes has attributes for a spread modifier, but how it's all actually used is up to the game.
 
  
−
The wiki Damage table includes pellet spread that is "distance from target" for one unit of "spread on target."
+
[[Tomislav]] minigun with lower DPS (and higher accuracy)
−
Assuming "spread on target" means distance from aim center, it describes a right triangle with length "pellet spread" and width 1 such that rotating around the long edge defines a cone of pellet spread (with a base diameter of 2).
 
  
−
Assume the spread value is the angle of that cone (in radians).  This lets us derive the "pellet spread" of the weapon.  The calculation is pellet spread = round(1/tan(spread/2)).
+
14-54 / 1 ammo<br/>117-450 / s
−
Specifically: ctx for shotguns says Spread = 0.0675. 1/tan(0.0675/2) = 29.618378775240068116408174736672, rounded that's 30, so "30 : 1" - it works.
 
  
−
''The calculation is based on how the right triangle uses an angle of half the spread cone angle (spread/2) where the "pellet spread" value is the length of the aim center edge adjacent to the angle (and the other edge is width 1).''
+
9-36 / 1 ammo<br/>75-292 / s
−
''Trigonometry says tangent(angle) = otherEdge / adjacentEdge AKA adjacentEdge = otherEdge / tangent(angle).  Consequently, "pellet spread" = 1 / tangent(spread/2)''
 
  
−
Given this clear formula, we don't need the oversimplified calculation Void1702 relied on (which was incorrectly using the value 0.06'''''2'''''5 - a typo in Blobbles' discussion which showed ctx image proof of 0.0675. I think Blobbles made the same mistake from the typo when originally setting a value on the pistol, although I don't know what "4% less of the shortstop" came from).
+
5-19 / 1 ammo<br/>42-158 / s
  
−
I extracted the pedigree of all spread weapons this way.  Shotguns & scatterguns are 30 (.0675), backscatter is 25 (.0675*1.20), shortstop is 50 (.04), pistols are 50 (.04), miniguns are 25 (.08), tomislav is 31 (.08*.80), SMGs and revolvers are 80 (.025).  I plan to list all relevant values in each change summary.
+
27 / bullet<br/>900 / s max
−
Beggar's includes "projectile spread angle penalty: projectile_spread_angle=3" clearly not the same units - 3 degrees in radians is 0.0523599, but using 38:1 in the "pellet spread"-labeled field is a little weird. 
 
−
Panic Attack's worst case appears only known via patch notes "March 28, 2018 Patch #1 Reduced worst-case shot pattern spread by 40%" which doesn't sound like a modifier to its base spread, but a change from before. If we instead interpret it as 40% increase in spread worst-case, then the 6th shot would be 0.0675*1.40=0.0945 with a "pellet spread" of 21 (a little worse than backscatter).
 
  
−
[[User:RotatcepS|rotatcepS]] ([[User talk:RotatcepS|talk]])
+
{{tooltip|12.15|Long range}}-{{tooltip|18.225|Point blank}} / bullet<br/>{{tooltip|408|Long range}}-{{tooltip|608|Point blank}} / s max
  
  
−
Follow-up question: I'm tempted to add a page on the wiki with a table that summarizes the 78 ctx files' information as useful source information.  But it would need updates over time (or at least a Date Stamp).  It has info that can be useful, questionable value, and semi-misleading (like a Spread value on the pomson or Range which is useful on 2 files, but others have 0, 4096, 8192).
+
[[Huo-Long Heater]]
 +
 
 +
{{tooltip|12-49|15-61 on already burning enemies}} / 1 ammo<br/>{{tooltip|114-467|143-581 on already burning enemies}} / s
  
 +
{{tooltip|8-32|10-41 on already burning enemies}} / 1 ammo<br/>{{tooltip|76-305|95-390 on already burning enemies}} / s
  
−
specifically:
+
{{tooltip|4-17|5-21 on already burning enemies}} / 1 ammo<br/>{{tooltip|38-162|48-200 on already burning enemies}} / s
  
−
* TF_WEAPON_PISTOL in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_pistol.ctx which has Spread: 0.04; round(1/tan(spread/2))=50; See Shotgun Discussion page.
+
{{tooltip|24.3|30.375 on already burning enemies}} / bullet<br/>{{tooltip|924|1162 on already burning enemies}} / s max
−
* TF_WEAPON_PISTOL_SCOUT in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_pistol.ctx which has Spread: 0.04; round(1/tan(spread/2))=50; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Winger in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_handgun_scout_secondary.ctx which has Spread: 0.04; round(1/tan(spread/2))=50; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_handgun_scout_secondary.ctx which has Spread: 0.04; round(1/tan(spread/2))=50; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* TF_WEAPON_SHOTGUN_PRIMARY in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_shotgun_primary.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Reserve Shooter in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_shotgun_primary.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* Panic Attack Shotgun in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_shotgun_primary.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; and mult_spread_scales_consecutive: mult_spread_scales_consecutive=1; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30 first shot; interpreting as 40% increase at worst so 21 on 6th shot; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Family Business in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_shotgun_primary.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Frontier Justice in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_sentry_revenge.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Widowmaker in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_shotgun_primary.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* TF_WEAPON_SCATTERGUN in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_scattergun.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Force-a-Nature in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_scattergun.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Shortstop in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_handgun_scout_primary.ctx which has Spread: 0.04; round(1/tan(spread/2))=50; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Soda Popper in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_soda_popper.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* Baby Face's Blaster in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_pep_brawler_blaster.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; round(1/tan(spread/2))=30; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Back Scatter in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_scattergun.ctx which has Spread: 0.0675; and spread penalty: mult_spread_scale=1.20; so spread=0.081; round(1/tan(spread/2))=25; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* TF_WEAPON_MINIGUN in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_minigun.ctx which has Spread: 0.08; round(1/tan(spread/2))=25; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* Natascha in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_minigun.ctx which has Spread: 0.08; round(1/tan(spread/2))=25; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Brass Beast in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_minigun.ctx which has Spread: 0.08; round(1/tan(spread/2))=25; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* Tomislav in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_minigun.ctx which has Spread: 0.08; and weapon spread bonus: mult_spread_scale=0.8; so spread=0.064; round(1/tan(spread/2))=31; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Huo Long Heatmaker in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_minigun.ctx which has Spread: 0.08; round(1/tan(spread/2))=25; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* TF_WEAPON_SMG in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_smg.ctx which has Spread: 0.025; round(1/tan(spread/2))=80; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Cleaner's Carbine in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_charged_smg.ctx which has Spread: 0.025; round(1/tan(spread/2))=80; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* TF_WEAPON_REVOLVER in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_revolver.ctx which has Spread: 0.025; round(1/tan(spread/2))=80; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Ambassador in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_revolver.ctx which has Spread: 0.025; round(1/tan(spread/2))=80; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* L'Etranger in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_revolver.ctx which has Spread: 0.025; round(1/tan(spread/2))=80; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Enforcer in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_revolver.ctx which has Spread: 0.025; round(1/tan(spread/2))=80; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
−
* The Diamondback in items_game.txt has Item_Class tf_weapon_revolver.ctx which has Spread: 0.025; round(1/tan(spread/2))=80; See Shotgun Discussion page.
 
  
 +
{{tooltip|10.935-16.3811|13.6688-20.4764 on already burning enemies}} / bullet<br/>{{tooltip|419-629 / s max|524-781 on already burning enemies}}
  
 +
  burning target numbers in crit/min-crit tooltips are bad math for 25% increase. I haven't done video testing yet, but I suspect Andreng made a mistake using cold weapons or something - no evidence listed for me to check.
  
 
[[Crusader's Crossbow#Damage_and_function_times|Crusader's Crossbow]]
 
[[Crusader's Crossbow#Damage_and_function_times|Crusader's Crossbow]]
Line 89: Line 93:
  
 
[[Rescue Ranger#Damage_and_function_times|Rescue Ranger]]
 
[[Rescue Ranger#Damage_and_function_times|Rescue Ranger]]
−
* DONE -RescueRanger wiki mini-crit max of 72 is nonsense (obs and calc agree to 81)-
 
−
* DONE -evidence: 60: https://youtu.be/Mx4sESdVNHs?t=9 minicrit (60*1.35=81.0) 81: https://youtu.be/Mx4sESdVNHs?t=39 crit 120: https://youtu.be/Mx4sESdVNHs?t=56-
 
  
 
[[Pistol#Damage_and_function_times|Pistol]] (engineer)
 
[[Pistol#Damage_and_function_times|Pistol]] (engineer)
−
* pistol 50 '''(vs. 48)''' ctx says .04
 
 
Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.
 
Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.
  
Line 102: Line 103:
  
 
[[Pistol#Damage_and_function_times|Pistol]] (scout)
 
[[Pistol#Damage_and_function_times|Pistol]] (scout)
−
* pistol 50 '''(vs. 48)''' ctx says .04
 
 
Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.
 
Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.
  
 
[[Winger#Damage_and_function_times|Winger]]
 
[[Winger#Damage_and_function_times|Winger]]
−
* pistol 50 '''(vs. 48)''' ctx says .04
 
 
* Wiki 1.10 reload was based on scout pistol that since was proven as 1.005
 
* Wiki 1.10 reload was based on scout pistol that since was proven as 1.005
  
 
[[Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol#Damage_and_function_times|Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol]]
 
[[Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol#Damage_and_function_times|Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol]]
−
* pistol 50 '''(vs. 48)''' ctx says .04
 
 
* Wiki 1.10 reload was based on scout pistol that since was proven as 1.005
 
* Wiki 1.10 reload was based on scout pistol that since was proven as 1.005
 
Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.
 
Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.
Line 134: Line 132:
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).
 
Thus, RL effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 112 observed, not 113 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 151 observed vs 152 at 125%)
 
Thus, RL effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 112 observed, not 113 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 151 observed vs 152 at 125%)
−
Also, Wiki seems unaware that the Crit-to-minicrit downgrade actually gives worse numbers than real minicrits at close range per my observations (clearly a simple multiplier instead of a crit-type-changer)
 
−
* DONE evidence: mc close 151, crit close 122 https://youtu.be/9gveiR7brfM?t=76 (but that includes the issue of close is not 0 range for actual minicrit)
 
−
* DONE "are converted to mini-crits instead. " The conversion ignores ramp-up the same way crits do, so at close range it does less damage than normal mini-crits.
 
−
* DONE tooltip: 122 max when crit boosted.
 
  
 
[[Beggar's Bazooka#Damage_and_function_times|Beggar's Bazooka]]
 
[[Beggar's Bazooka#Damage_and_function_times|Beggar's Bazooka]]
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).
 
Thus, RL effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 112 observed, not 113 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 151 observed vs 152 at 125%)
 
Thus, RL effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 112 observed, not 113 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 151 observed vs 152 at 125%)
−
Also, spread 36:1 based on 3 degrees translating to a spread of 0.05236
+
Also, 3 degrees in radians is 0.0523599, so spread of 38:1
  
 
[[Air Strike#Damage_and_function_times|Air Strike]]
 
[[Air Strike#Damage_and_function_times|Air Strike]]
Line 151: Line 145:
  
 
[[Shotgun#Damage_and_function_times|Shotgun]]
 
[[Shotgun#Damage_and_function_times|Shotgun]]
−
* TODO wiki all pellets far 30, but calc is 32, need evidence (Wiki Long range all pellets is as if 50%, not 52.8%??)
 
−
*  seen at range (https://youtu.be/Hz3GmGv6YKg): 3, 6, 10, 13, 16,(19 not seen), 22, (not seen: 25, 29, 32);
 
 
* this is consistent with (6*52.8%=)3.168/pellet: 3.168, 6.336, 9.504, 12.672, 15.84, (19.008), 22.176, (25.344, 28.512, 31.68);
 
* this is consistent with (6*52.8%=)3.168/pellet: 3.168, 6.336, 9.504, 12.672, 15.84, (19.008), 22.176, (25.344, 28.512, 31.68);
 
*  seen at range minicrit (6*1.35=8.1)8, (16.2)16, (24.3)24, (32.4)32, (40.5)41, (48.6)49, (not seen: 56.7=57, 64.8=65, 72.9=73, 81);
 
*  seen at range minicrit (6*1.35=8.1)8, (16.2)16, (24.3)24, (32.4)32, (40.5)41, (48.6)49, (not seen: 56.7=57, 64.8=65, 72.9=73, 81);
Line 162: Line 154:
  
 
[[Reserve Shooter#Damage_and_function_times|Reserve Shooter]]
 
[[Reserve Shooter#Damage_and_function_times|Reserve Shooter]]
−
* (shotgun) TODO wiki all pellets far 30, but calc is 32, need evidence (Wiki Long range all pellets is as if 50%, not 52.8%??)
 
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
−
* seen at range (https://youtu.be/iGeJKzW4UfQ): 3, 6, 10?, 13, 16?
 
 
* seen minicrit at range: 8, 16, 24, 32, 41
 
* seen minicrit at range: 8, 16, 24, 32, 41
  
 
[[Panic Attack#Damage_and_function_times|Panic Attack]]
 
[[Panic Attack#Damage_and_function_times|Panic Attack]]
−
* wiki far 36 should be 38 - (shotgun) TODO wiki all pellets far 30, but calc is 32, need evidence (Wiki Long range all pellets is as if 50%, not 52.8%??)
 
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
−
* seen at range (https://youtu.be/pRKZZ1z7nH4): 3, 5? (no random spread)
 
 
* seen minicrit at range (https://youtu.be/pRKZZ1z7nH4?t=57): 6, 13 (no random spread)
 
* seen minicrit at range (https://youtu.be/pRKZZ1z7nH4?t=57): 6, 13 (no random spread)
 
* seen crit at range: 14 29 43
 
* seen crit at range: 14 29 43
  
 
[[Family Business#Damage_and_function_times|Family Business]]
 
[[Family Business#Damage_and_function_times|Family Business]]
−
* wiki far 26 should be 27 - (shotgun) TODO wiki all pellets far 30, but calc is 32, need evidence (Wiki Long range all pellets is as if 50%, not 52.8%??)
 
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* obs/wiki agree close is 76, not (60*85%=51) 51*150%=76.5 rounds to 77.  That does match 'Round To Even' rule, however.
 
* obs/wiki agree close is 76, not (60*85%=51) 51*150%=76.5 rounds to 77.  That does match 'Round To Even' rule, however.
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
−
* seen at range (https://youtu.be/ahJJIKJl-6M): 3, 5, 8, 11? 13? 23?
 
 
* seen minicrit at range: (https://youtu.be/ahJJIKJl-6M?t=37): 7, 14, 21, 28, 34
 
* seen minicrit at range: (https://youtu.be/ahJJIKJl-6M?t=37): 7, 14, 21, 28, 34
 
* seen crit: 15, 31, 46, 61, 77, 122
 
* seen crit: 15, 31, 46, 61, 77, 122
  
 
[[Frontier Justice#Damage_and_function_times|Frontier Justice]]
 
[[Frontier Justice#Damage_and_function_times|Frontier Justice]]
−
* 3/pellet long range should be 3.168 like other shotguns
 
−
* (shotgun) TODO wiki all pellets far 30, but calc is 32, need evidence (Wiki Long range all pellets is as if 50%, not 52.8%??)
 
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
−
* seen at range (https://youtu.be/a2eT-rfm5rI): 3, 10, 13, 22 (hard to see)
 
 
* seen minicrit at range: 8, 16, 24, 32, (not seen:41), 49 (not seen: 57, 65, 73, 81)
 
* seen minicrit at range: 8, 16, 24, 32, (not seen:41), 49 (not seen: 57, 65, 73, 81)
  
 
[[Widowmaker#Damage_and_function_times|Widowmaker]]
 
[[Widowmaker#Damage_and_function_times|Widowmaker]]
−
* 3/pellet long range should be 3.168 like other shotguns
 
−
* (shotgun) TODO wiki all pellets far 30, but calc is 32, need evidence (Wiki Long range all pellets is as if 50%, not 52.8%??)
 
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets)  (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
 
* (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
−
*  seen at range (https://youtu.be/vKrbbHCkI6I): 3, 6, 10, 13, 16, (not seen: 19, 22, 25, 29, 32);
 
 
*  vs target (https://youtu.be/Mi_MPZ4BdLk): 3, 7, 10, 14, 17?, 21?, 24?
 
*  vs target (https://youtu.be/Mi_MPZ4BdLk): 3, 7, 10, 14, 17?, 21?, 24?
 
*  seen minicrit at range (https://youtu.be/vKrbbHCkI6I?t=35) 8, 16, 24, 32, 41, 49, (not seen: 56.7=57), 65, (not seen: 72.9=73, 81);
 
*  seen minicrit at range (https://youtu.be/vKrbbHCkI6I?t=35) 8, 16, 24, 32, 41, 49, (not seen: 56.7=57), 65, (not seen: 72.9=73, 81);
  
 
[[Scattergun#Damage_and_function_times|Scattergun]]
 
[[Scattergun#Damage_and_function_times|Scattergun]]
−
* TODO (from AShotgun) wiki all pellets far 30, but calc is 32, need evidence.  30 implies 50% fall-off
 
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)
 
* wiki/calc close 105, but obs 104; minicrit calc 142 but obs/'wiki' 141
 
* wiki/calc close 105, but obs 104; minicrit calc 142 but obs/'wiki' 141
Line 210: Line 189:
  
 
[[Force-A-Nature#Damage_and_function_times|Force-A-Nature]]
 
[[Force-A-Nature#Damage_and_function_times|Force-A-Nature]]
−
* TODO wiki all pellets far 32, but calc is 34, need evidence
 
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)
 
* minicrit 'wiki'/calc close 153, but obs 152
 
* minicrit 'wiki'/calc close 153, but obs 152
Line 216: Line 194:
  
 
[[Shortstop#Damage_and_function_times|Shortstop]]
 
[[Shortstop#Damage_and_function_times|Shortstop]]
−
* TODO wiki all pellets far 24, but calc is 25, need evidence
 
 
* Close range works with 30, 25 (scatter current default), also most anything else (23.5-32)
 
* Close range works with 30, 25 (scatter current default), also most anything else (23.5-32)
−
* Wiki claims "has approximately 40% less pellet spread" although it's not listed in stats
+
* Wiki claims "has approximately 40% less pellet spread" although it's not listed in stats (.04 same as pistol instead of .0675) pellets 4, damage 12
−
Specifically, peppergun .ctx (GCFscape extract, VICE decode) lists Spread 0.04 (same as pistol), pellets 4, damage 12
 
  
 
[[Soda Popper#Damage_and_function_times|Soda Popper]]
 
[[Soda Popper#Damage_and_function_times|Soda Popper]]
Line 232: Line 208:
  
 
[[Back Scatter#Damage_and_function_times|Back Scatter]]
 
[[Back Scatter#Damage_and_function_times|Back Scatter]]
−
*  backscatter 25 '''(vs 24)''' ctx .0675 * items_game.txt 1.20 = 0.081
 
 
* wiki/calc close 105, but obs 104; minicrit calc/'wiki' 142 but obs 141
 
* wiki/calc close 105, but obs 104; minicrit calc/'wiki' 142 but obs 141
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)
 
* **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)

Latest revision as of 23:40, 19 June 2023

I am calculating observed point blank damage at ramp up using an offset to get the observed achievable values, lower than raw calculation. "offset" is a value usually based on shounic's video on projectile origins (this may not be a valid source to the wiki rules)... it's an offset such that 32 means no spacing (true point blank) and 0 means 32 spacing. Many are 23.5 offset, so 6.5 spacing. video doesn't talk about hitscan weapons so I made up numbers that meet the observations. Mostly 25 offset (7 spacing). The point is, you can't shoot somebody from inside of them - collision boxes keep you more than 0 HU apart.


Discussion:

Follow-up question: I'm tempted to add a page on the wiki with a table that summarizes the 78 ctx files' information as useful source information. But it would need updates over time (or at least a Date Stamp). It has info that can be useful, questionable value, and semi-misleading (like a Spread value on the pomson or Range which is useful on 2 files, but others have 0, 4096, 8192).

0.0675 game value results in damage table:

  • Spread Cone: 7.735°
  • Pellet/Bullet Spread: 15 : 1
  • Spread Accuracy: 185Hu (11.5ft)

Minigun (copy to iron curtain. Tomislav needs different DPS & remove "s" while updating interval tip). Custom values for Natascha, Brass Beast, Huo-long reg & on fire)

14-54 / 1 ammo
129-514 / s

However, I'll probably come back later with evidence of something like: 13-52 / 1 ammo & 125-500 / s

9-36 / 1 ammo
86-343 / s

5-19 / 1 ammo
48-190 / s

27 / bullet
1029 / s max

12.15-18.225 / bullet
467-695 / s max

bullet count = 4 attack interval = 0.105 s 

 damage ranges should mirror shotguns (1-4 bullets possible any range, leave tooltips for special cases, use bullet count); PerSecond=round((1/AttackInterval)*round(BulletDamage*OneOrFour)); s on attack interval on other pages

Will have to change flamethrower DPS format to match this. (Manta March 2013 edit added tooltip instead of setting bullet count)

Natascha 10.125/bullet

10-41 / 1 ammo
95-390 / s

7-27 / 1 ammo
67-257 / s

4-14 / 1 ammo
38-133 / s

20.25 / bullet
771 / s max

9.1125-13.6688 / bullet
343-524 / s max

Brass Beast

16-65 / 1 ammo
152-619 / s

11-43 / 1 ammo
105-410 / s

6-23 / 1 ammo
57-219 / s

32.4 / bullet
1238 / s max

14.58-21.8415 / bullet
552-829 / s max

Tomislav minigun with lower DPS (and higher accuracy)

14-54 / 1 ammo
117-450 / s

9-36 / 1 ammo
75-292 / s

5-19 / 1 ammo
42-158 / s

27 / bullet
900 / s max

12.15-18.225 / bullet
408-608 / s max


Huo-Long Heater

12-49 / 1 ammo
114-467 / s

8-32 / 1 ammo
76-305 / s

4-17 / 1 ammo
38-162 / s

24.3 / bullet
924 / s max

10.935-16.3811 / bullet
419-629 / s max 

 burning target numbers in crit/min-crit tooltips are bad math for 25% increase. I haven't done video testing yet, but I suspect Andreng made a mistake using cold weapons or something - no evidence listed for me to check.

Crusader's Crossbow

  • TODO Wiki has theoretical crit & minicrit values of 113 & 51 on the low end when I've observed practical ones of 115 & 52
  • should point blanks be theoretical or achievable?
  • evidence 38: https://youtu.be/ivCOJvt5YDc?t=33 minicrit 52: https://youtu.be/ivCOJvt5YDc?t=68 crit 115 https://youtu.be/ivCOJvt5YDc?t=89
  • why? I believe it's ramped 50% at 0 hang time, but minimum hang time at point blank results in 38.17..38.4 damage instead of 75/2=37.5 (all round to 38). 38.4*1.35=51.84 (rounds to 52); 38.4*3=115.2 (rounds to 115)

Rescue Ranger

Pistol (engineer) Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.

Short Circuit

  • 7 damage but point blank ~150% ramp up for 10 damage, max range is still 125% ramp up for 9 damage
    • robot arm.ctx or whatever it is, extracted with GCFScape, decoded with VICE, shows Damage: 7 and Range:256. If you believe this, give point blank 150% ramp up (but, like the pistol, achievable is only 149.3%), and believe the max range (effective ramp is 125%), the values match what I've observed: 10 point blank (14 minicrit), 9 at range. I observed 13 minicrit at range, calc says it should be 12 - I'll need to do more tests to see if I can observe a 12.
  • does energy ball do reduced building damage, too? https://youtu.be/f7yiwdxZzw0?t=177 says it doesn't.

Pistol (scout) Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.

Winger

  • Wiki 1.10 reload was based on scout pistol that since was proven as 1.005

Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol

  • Wiki 1.10 reload was based on scout pistol that since was proven as 1.005

Also, pistol effective close is 149.3% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 22 observed, not 23 that 150% would give you.

Rocket Launcher

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).

Thus, RL effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 112 observed, not 113 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 151 observed vs 152 at 125%)

direct hit

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).
  • Wiki base rounded down from 112.5, game conditions on similar cases seem to round up...right?
  • radius on wiki is rounded - is that editor simplifying or is that how the game uses it?

Thus, direct hit effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 149 observed, not 141 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 189 observed vs 190 at 125%)

Black Box

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).

Thus, RL effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 112 observed, not 113 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 151 observed vs 152 at 125%)

Liberty Launcher

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).

Cow Mangler 5000

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).

Thus, RL effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 112 observed, not 113 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 151 observed vs 152 at 125%)

Beggar's Bazooka

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).

Thus, RL effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 112 observed, not 113 that 125% would give you. (and minicrit close is 151 observed vs 152 at 125%) Also, 3 degrees in radians is 0.0523599, so spread of 38:1

Air Strike

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET - 125% works with all when using offset=23.5 (documented value) but NOT with 32 (no min separation).
  • base 76.5 wiki rounds down, also wiki-ramp-up & point-blank don't agree, nor do wiki base and medium
  • TODO my calc (now) & my obs & point blank wiki of 95; wiki Ramp as 96 (my calc USED to do that too)

Thus, air strike effective close is 124.6% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 95 observed, not 96 that 125% would give you.

Shotgun

  • this is consistent with (6*52.8%=)3.168/pellet: 3.168, 6.336, 9.504, 12.672, 15.84, (19.008), 22.176, (25.344, 28.512, 31.68);
  • seen at range minicrit (6*1.35=8.1)8, (16.2)16, (24.3)24, (32.4)32, (40.5)41, (48.6)49, (not seen: 56.7=57, 64.8=65, 72.9=73, 81);
  • seen crit (6*3=)18, 36(18x2), 54(x3), 72(x4), 90(x5), 108(x6), 126(x7), 144(x8), 162(x9), 180(x10)
  • CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets) (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
  • seen at pb: 9, 18, 27, ... 90;
  • seen at pb minicrit: 12(12.15), 24(24.3), 36(36.45), (not seen 48.6), 60(NO MATCH 5*9*1.35=60.75), ... 121(NO MATCH 10*9*1.35=121.5)
  • wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50

Reserve Shooter

  • (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets) (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
  • (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
  • seen minicrit at range: 8, 16, 24, 32, 41

Panic Attack

  • (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets) (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
  • (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
  • seen minicrit at range (https://youtu.be/pRKZZ1z7nH4?t=57): 6, 13 (no random spread)
  • seen crit at range: 14 29 43

Family Business

  • (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets) (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
  • obs/wiki agree close is 76, not (60*85%=51) 51*150%=76.5 rounds to 77. That does match 'Round To Even' rule, however.
  • (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
  • seen minicrit at range: (https://youtu.be/ahJJIKJl-6M?t=37): 7, 14, 21, 28, 34
  • seen crit: 15, 31, 46, 61, 77, 122

Frontier Justice

  • (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets) (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
  • (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
  • seen minicrit at range: 8, 16, 24, 32, (not seen:41), 49 (not seen: 57, 65, 73, 81)

Widowmaker

  • (shotgun) CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET or <150% (mc obs don't match calc at higher pellets) (149.3% works ... based on my interp of shounic offsets)
  • (shotgun) wiki 0.51 reload more, but derivatives all use 0.50
  • vs target (https://youtu.be/Mi_MPZ4BdLk): 3, 7, 10, 14, 17?, 21?, 24?
  • seen minicrit at range (https://youtu.be/vKrbbHCkI6I?t=35) 8, 16, 24, 32, 41, 49, (not seen: 56.7=57), 65, (not seen: 72.9=73, 81);

Scattergun

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)
  • wiki/calc close 105, but obs 104; minicrit calc 142 but obs/'wiki' 141
  • obs close 10-104 matches my offsets and not wiki

Specifically, Scattergun effective close is 174.0% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 10-104 observed, not 11-105 that 175% would give you. (and minicrit close is 141 observed vs 142 at 175%)

Force-A-Nature

  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)
  • minicrit 'wiki'/calc close 153, but obs 152

Specifically, FaN effective close is 174.0% so minicrit close is 152 observed vs 153 at 175%

Shortstop

  • Close range works with 30, 25 (scatter current default), also most anything else (23.5-32)
  • Wiki claims "has approximately 40% less pellet spread" although it's not listed in stats (.04 same as pistol instead of .0675) pellets 4, damage 12

Soda Popper

  • wiki/calc close 105, but obs 104; minicrit calc/'wiki' 142 but obs 141
  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)

Specifically, Scattergun effective close is 174.0% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 10-104 observed, not 11-105 that 175% would give you. (and minicrit close is 141 observed vs 142 at 175%)

Baby Face's Blaster

  • wiki/calc close 105, but obs 104; minicrit calc/'wiki' 142 but obs 141
  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)

Specifically, Scattergun effective close is 174.0% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 10-104 observed, not 11-105 that 175% would give you. (and minicrit close is 141 observed vs 142 at 175%)

Back Scatter

  • wiki/calc close 105, but obs 104; minicrit calc/'wiki' 142 but obs 141
  • **CLOSE RANGE REQUIRES OFFSET (32 doesn't match)

Specifically, Scattergun effective close is 174.0% because you can't get to actual point blank, thus the damage is 10-104 observed, not 11-105 that 175% would give you. (and minicrit close is 141 observed vs 142 at 175%)

Dragon's Fury

  • TODO I could use max range 549 to get observed 24 (72 burning) at max range vs. 52.8% long range
  • max range 592 gets wiki's 23 (71 burning) at max range vs. 52.8% long range; but wiki claims 526 max
  • obs falloff 24 (calc/wiki 23); minicrit obs/wiki close 40 (calc 41); wiki mc burning 100-121 (calc 101-122)
  • Interestingly it's 'based on' a 90dmg rocket...which is how much it gets on burning point blank hits

to match wiki (23 far, 69 far on fire): 600 or 592 max range, using either 52.8% or 50% long range to match obs (24 far, 72 far on fire): 548 max range, 50% long range. 547 works, too. (to use wiki's range of 526, not even 0% long range works for wiki or observed (except it works for not-on-fire as match of observed)) turns out to get obs numbers with long of 0 to 52.8 has to be max range of 530-562 turns out to get wiki numbers with long of 0 to 52.8 has to be max range of 550-606

burning targets: My observed had 72 far, 106 minicrit far. I should do more testing - likely 106 minicrit is just 1 minicrit afterburn (5) combined with the calculated 101 damage. Need more testing I guess.


Loose Cannon

  • Needs more obs. ranged fuse in wiki, obs don't think so. obs: maybe falloff starts post-long range (time-based)? crit truly affected by range?


Quickiebomb Launcher

  • Wiki says radius 189 - but same date this weapon was added others reduced from 159 to 146
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